the only way you get $5 trillion is let the rates go up and then go back down. that's just the math. and the studies. >> what the studies basically say the only way governor romney can fill the hole, a five trillion dollar hole from the rate cut and another four and a half trillion from extending the bush tax cuts is by raising taxes on people below $200,000, starting at around $100,000, that's marty feldstein's idea. or to imagine that because of these tax cuts you're going to get large growth rates. no thaw's supply-side fairy dust and has served us very poorly. >> brown: give us specifics for what you see making what governor romney says a deficit-neutral tax cut plan. is it taxes or what specific cuts might be possible? deductions? what would happen? >> the cuts are the rates and that's the --. >> brown: i meant spending cuts. that's what i meant. >> he's not look at the spending side. he's saying let's look at things like mortgage deduction, exclusion of the health care, all of the personal exemptions, itemized deductions in the tax code right now and ask t